From: Darren Rhodes (darren.rhodes$##$gmail.com)
Date: Thu Feb 23 2006 - 05:31:00 EST
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Darren Rhodes <darren.rhodes$##$gmail.com>
Date: Feb 22, 2006 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: ORGLIST: Synthetic Methods Wiki
To: "Kiessling, Dr Anthony J" <akiessli$##$mansfield.edu>
Hi Dr Kiessling
May I try and address the points you raised, below.
"I guess I might be a little dense here but it seems to me that what
you are looking for already exists, it's called a library."
I think that you've missed the point. A library is a geographical
space, limited in both the amount of books and journals it can carry
and usually by some sort of membership rights ie access. Dr Davies'
idea will overcome both of these impediments.
"I took a look at the synthetic web site that was mentioned a few
notes ago and thought it reminded me of Organic Synthesis's little
brother, BUT it's not peer reviewed."
Nor is wikipedia but a lot of people use it in preference to other
fonts of knowledge. The _validity_ or otherwise of wikipedia is still
being debated maybe it is misleading us? Maybe it is up to us to
adapt to only a degree of certainty rather than the _pretense_ of
absolute certain offered by peer review.
"As a synthetic organic chemist" ... does being a synthetic organic
chemist impair your judgement?
"I would not trust this site as much as I would Organic Synthesis, or
a procedure gleaned from J. Org. Chem. or any other ACS publication."
But you're prejudging the site? Re-read your post ... where's your
science? Why aren't you open minded? It could be the most fantastic
think since sliced bread.
"ACS publications are already searchable on the web, yes I know it
cost an annual due but it is there."
If it costs an annual due and some people cannot afford this annual
due then it is NOT there. Can't you see the evil and the spite of the
current _status quo_? Have you heard of Borge's The Library of Babel?
The story is about a fantastic library, a repository of knowledge for
all mankind, except. Except it isn't accessable: people can't seem to
be able to get at the books. Tragic isn't it? This is the system
that the ACS and the RSC are in. (Fortunately they are making efforts
to extricate themselves from such a dishonourable, disreputable and
abject position).
"As for the copyright issue, that is common and the ACS and other
publication houses own copyright to all published procedures."
It may be common but it is being eliminated. Efforts are being made
with respect to Open Source projects. Copyright isn't necessarily the
way forward; many people are looking beyond copyright. You may (well,
others on the list, may) be interested in the following link ...
http://www.arl.org/arl/proceedings/138/guedon.html ... which discusses
scientific publishing.
"As for more general knowledge, there are books published on practical
organic chemistry (Larock, March, Carey & Sunberg, Shriner's qual
text, etc.)."
Why don't you submit this to the proposed wiki?
"Drying solvents was the first thing I learned to do when I arrived at
grad school."
Yes. All of us did. That isn't the point. Why dry solvents if it
isn't necessary? How does one know whether or not it is necessary?
Some reactions chew up residual water (from a poorly dried solvent)
and chug along nicely; in other reactions the tiniest amount of water
stops the reaction dead. Would you be willing to share your knowledge
and experience of this sort of thing on the wiki?
"As the old saying goes, '40 hours in the lab will save you an hour in
the library'."
More often than not this is said by lazy academics as a means of
shirking their duties toward their students. It is an excuse the
academic uses for _his_, rather than the pupils, short comings. This
is well known throughout the academic world; perhaps it is better to
avoid saying this sort of thing.
Darren.
On 2/21/06, Kiessling, Dr Anthony J <akiessli$##$mansfield.edu> wrote:
> I guess I might be a little dense here but it seems to me that what you
> are looking for already exists, it's called a library. I took a look at
> the synthetic web site that was mentioned a few notes ago and thought it
> reminded me of Organic Synthesis's little brother, BUT it's not peer
> reviewed. As a synthetic organic chemist I would not trust this site as
> much as I would Organic Synthesis, or a procedure gleaned from J. Org.
> Chem. or any other ACS publication. ACS publications are already
> searchable on the web, yes I know it cost an annual due but it is there.
> As for the copyright issue, that is common and the ACS and other
> publication houses own copyright to all published procedures. As for
> more general knowledge, there are books published on practical organic
> chemistry (Larock, March, Carey & Sunberg, Shriner's qual text, etc.).
> Drying solvents was the first thing I learned to do when I arrived at
> grad school. As the old saying goes, '40 hours in the lab will save you
> an hour in the library'.
>
> Dr. Kiessling
> Department of Chemistry
> Mansfield University
> 570-662-4546
> akiessli$##$mansfield.edu
> http://faculty.mansfield.edu/akiessli/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: everybody-bounces$##$orglist.net
> [mailto:everybody-bounces$##$orglist.net] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:08 PM
> To: everybody$##$orglist.net
> Subject: Re: ORGLIST: Synthetic Methods Wiki
>
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 07:54:57PM +0100, Jonas Sundberg wrote:
>
> > Yes, that looks like a big problem.
>
> I wonder what the motivation behind this restrictive copyright
> was. Do the operators of http://www.syntheticpages.org/ (I kept
> looking for a contact address, but was unable to find any) eventually
> intend to raise a profit from operating it?
>
> > But I think it will be hard to get traffic/active writers, as there
> seem
> > to be a lack of organic chemists that surf the web. Still I think it's
>
> > worth a try! It doesn't cost anything else than the time wasted
> setting
> > it up, and it could both be fun and educative. But I think we need
> more
> > than a wiki of organic synthesis. A think a general wiki about organic
>
> > chemistry with a special section dedicated to preparatory methods
> would
> > work better, and maybe run a forum too.
>
> I'm a chemist by training, currently work in cheminformatics, and
> have several machines in the rack by way of hobby. Assuming people here
> would contribute content, we can easily cook up something useful, and
> then see
> where it goes from there. There's plenty of such projects in biological
> sciences (e.g. http://openwetware.org/wiki/Main_Page etc.), but I always
> considered organic chemists to be a too conservative bunch.
>
> Is there at all an interest here in such a project?
>
> > /Jonas
> >
> > Eugen Leitl wrote:
> >
> > >On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 06:46:45PM +0000, will jones wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>I've tried using that site before and also found it a bit thin. If
> you
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >I see bigger problems here:
> http://www.syntheticpages.org/static/terms.php
> > >
> > >Copyright
> > >
> > > * SyntheticPages owns the copyright and any other rights to all
> > > materials on this website
> > > * SyntheticPages authorises you to:
> > > o browse and download the material
> > > o print out the material for teaching or research
> activities,
> > > provided that the copyright notice is included (Copyright
> > > SyntheticPages (c) )
> > > * You are not authorised to:
> > > o alter the material in any way
> > > o reproduce or store any part of this web site in any other
> > > public or private storage medium, electronic or otherwise,
> > > without written permission from SyntheticPages.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>could make the submission process easy, and somehow have the ability
> to
> > >>search by structure, then I guess you would be onto a winner.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >These are GIFs, so in order to be able to search the images would
> > >have to be reentered manually, and exported into a suitable format
> > >(SMILEs, InChI, SDF, etc.) for searching (in a pinch, obgrep would
> do).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>If you could also put in a 'section of failed reactions, but should
> have
> > >>worked' then that would be awesome.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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